Talk:Banner Demon Tier List

Definining or Describing each Tier Grade

First the current definition for 10 in PVP rating is "can be used against every teams and still be effective". This defines versatility. Instead 10 should be defined from how powerful, threatening the demons are or their impact on the game. Also versatility doesn't really match the way we've rated the Tier 9 and below else the Archangels should be much lower (even MasA would be lower as it's auto-lose if you get outsped).

Second, I think it is time to make a description of each Tier (at least for PvP). I would also allow to have a slightly more objective way of grading the demon. Since the current PVP Offense Tier ratings are more or less self-consistent, we can start by making the Definitions from them:

• Tier 10: Meta-warping demon. Insane demon who either forces the Metagame to be built around it or have the potential to do so and is only limited by the fact only few people have the panel 3 demon. Startegies, skills and demons that would have never been Meta are now (would potentially be) relevant because of this Tier 10 Demon; but even then these strategies are not real counters to this demon.
  • Tier 10 PVP Offense warps the PVP Defense Metagame and vice-versa.
• Tier 9: Meta-defining demons. Extremely strong demons who are not only the best ones in the role they are supposed to cover but cover a role that is extremely useful in or against the Metagame. Tier 9 are demons perfectly suited to fight against the whole Meta or perfectly complement some Meta teams.
• Tier 8: Rogue strategies or balanced anti-Meta teams. Very strong demons filling important roles. Extrememly strong against nearly all non-Meta strategies and teams (from Mid to low-High Tier teams). But have difficulty against a sizeable part of the Top Tier Meta teams, may not totally fit in or are outclassed by a Tier 9 demon already covering their niche.
• Tier 7: Mid Tier demons. Can be very good in a narrow aspect but have drawbacks that either put them at an extreme disavantage against the Meta, is contradictory with the role they are supposed to cover, or cover a role hard-countered by the Meta. Tier 7 demons can be useful in teams competitive against the Meta but they would not be the ones doing the heavy lifting in such teams.
• Tier 6: Demons that are either underwhelming in qualities or/and have drawbacks fatal against the Meta or even High Tier rogue strategies. They also have difficulty against Mid Tier (Tier 7).
• Tier 5 and lower: Different shades of lack of qualities and fatal drawback.

These definitions can be used as citeria for furture change in rating + new demons. That being said a demon a league above all Tier 7 demons would be Tier 8 even if it doesn't fit the Tier 8 definition and vice-versa. So the main criterion for Tier rating must still be a rank-order criterion.

Subsequent changes in PVP Defense Tier Rating

• Masakado PVP Defense should go from 10 to 9 (9.5 at best). On defense, he certainly doesn't pose the same threat as he used to for people playing Meta teams. People certainly have learned to play around him (and more notably his AI) without being forced to use skills or demons whose purpose it to resist Masa (ex: Parvati aren't all that necessary with all the new demons and strats).

• Hero Masakado PVP Defensee : go from 9 to 9.5 at least. The switch from Y Ash to T Ash with EoF is kinda partially cause by him. Same with all the wild instinct stuff and even Niddorg and Gog stuff.

Other changes: overall I think there are some inconsistencies in PVP Defense Rating currently. It comes from the fact the Defense rating used to be, by default, equal to their Offense rating minus 1; but more recent ratings don't follow that so we get inconsistencies. Instead the Defense Rating should be based off 1/ comparison with the Def Rating of similar demons and 2/ from the definitions established above.

• Metatron, Lucifer, Susano-o, Ace Frost, Shiva Defense PVP : from 6 to 7.

• Ixtab Defense : from 7 to 6. Underwhelming in Defense.

• Susano-o A Defense : from 9 to 8 (8.5 at best). Certainly good against Rogue strats but I doubt the meta fears the passing gimmick (Susa is fast enough that opposing IS teams will be allowed to go second and he doesn't seem to bring much against MasA cancer teams)

Mokoi's Notes

Mokoi's responses

• Dx2 Tier List suggestions (PvP focused)

• Masakado A: Offense/Defense -> 9 Enables the best burst teams both on offense and defense, but is very much capped by the demons you bring with him
  • I disagree, I would still put him at 10, just because of his raw power. He needs a team to be built around, but so does literally every demon, as your team needs synergy. Also Id argue he fits into a lot of comps. So I wouldnt consider that dropping him down. -Maaster
  • Not sure if you're talking about General Masakado here instead of Hero. Though exactly that might justify putting him to at least 9.5 on both?
  • My bad. Im stupid. (Always confuse the two lmao) Anyway. As you said he enables the best burst teams, so I think 9.5 is justified. The problem is that on def he will not pass (as with everyone) which will make him probably miss since you will probably put 0% in Acc, and rather go full speed to go first. Soo...idk. Maybe 9.5 and 9?

• Garuda: Offense/Defense -> 8 Put on one level with the other fastest demon Karti since I don't think either is significantly enough better to put them one rating apart
  • Im kinda torn on this...on the one hand you are right, on the other hand I would argue that Garuda is more flexible (Karti only benefits Phys Teams). In current Meta I would say Karti is a bit weaker, tho I wouldnt oppose this change. -Maaster
  • Karti will take up a press turn way less frequently than Garuda, because of Krit passing, is faster and basically has the same kit as Garuda which needs a Speedster transfer while Karti just needs Auto Rakunda, if you even need that at all. Karti is probably better than Garuda for Turbo-Ailments for example. If we were talking PvE I might agree, but I think in PvP Karti is more flexible.
  • Fair enough. Kinda hard to compare the two imo. Having troubles with it, but since they are pretty much just used for speed I think 8 on both is fine.

• Ash: Offense -> 9 Recognizing the fact that she is a mainstay to counter burst teams right now, though meta is shifting which might make this debatable
  • Agreed. Maybe also 8.5 on def? -Maaster
  • I think MC gets a lot worse if you don't have active control over who to revive and when to revive them, but it's still amazing so I wouldn't oppose that.

• Huang Di: Offense -> 7 Just better Phys Pierce options available, his stats are kind of underwhelming and MP costs are too high
  • Wouldnt oppose this change, tho I do feel that his high crit and heal are pretty strong. -Maaster

• Ixtab: Defense -> 7 Way too easy to play around Ixtab on defense most of the time
  • Agreed. Would also personally bump her offense down, but I cant really say much for that as I have never played with her. -Maaster
  • I think offense rating is kind of fair since AI is still kind of dumb and there are few defenses that can deal with her gimmick nowadays with few purple GYs and even fewer Indras on defense. Some people are still able to abuse her to get to T500.

• PR: Might deserve a mention for being very easy to build a very strong PvP team around and being the single thing keeping ailments competitive at the top
  • Agreed, tho this is apparantly a hot topic on Discord. Duke it out for yourselves, Im no ailment guy. Fucker hits like a truck tho and fucks up some of my pvp streaks. -Maaster
  • I think that debate is more about Nergal. Everybody agrees that PR is by far the best ailment unit (as an aside I literally got killed by a PR team while typing this :) )

• Shiva: Offense -> 6 No pierce in addition to just being a blob of stats with no utility making the pierce even more of a necessity. He is good at his niche, but the niche is too narrow
  • Id settle for a 7. I agree 8 is a bit high, but given a Hell Gongen Team, she can pull off some amazing shit. Ive played it and it works. (If I had better brands I would still play it) -Maaster
  • I just don't think Biker teams are viable on offense right now, making HIM not that usable and I feel demons in PvP should always be rated depending on the current Meta, meaning that HE might be better when we have more medium speed teams, instead of super fast or super slow.
  • Id still argue for a 7. Its not top 100 material but well usable and can kill a lot of enemy comps.

• Susano-o A: Defense -> 9, High ST damage and punishing a ton of more fringe strategies, one of the better defense phys piercers
  • Cant really talk much here. In theory Id agree, but in practice he is either too frail, too blind or too weak. If you have literal perfect brands (HP, Acc and Patk) Id might put him to 9, but...idk. More discussion needed. Personally I dont think he is a 9. -Maaster
  • I agree that the gap between well built ones is immense ranging from decent but not amazing to almost Masa tier. Though I might be personally biased here after meeting a few with insane brands transfers and builds, with a few doing something similar to Indrajit with some additional stuff on top like crits, punishing passing, and also having some flexibility by being usable as a Phys Drainer.
  • As the Tier List represents the rating I tihnk a 9 is fine because thats him at his best. Just include a note that hes especially brand dependant and will drop if you dont have really good ones.

• Susano-o: Offense -> 7, Defense -> 6 Can't get past endures is very fragile and has no pierce
  • Agree, even though Endures and no pierce doesnt really matter (noone covers weaknesses atm and force NDR is pretty scarce) -Maaster
  • Yeah it's just fancy ways of saying that I don't think single target nukers that can only nuke once per turn cycle are all that strong right now unless it's for specific revenges, but rating demons for revenge or targeting is dumb

• Trumpeter: Offense -> 6 Apocalypse is too high cost for turn 1 use most of the time and he is too fast for teams that want to go consistently second, his kit also offers almost nothing else with two panels boosting concentrate which still does not make it viable
  • Agree. -Maaster

• V*: Defense -> 8.5 Mostly considering how much free damage it adds to all defense teams since def AI will spend a lot of time with normal attacks
  • Ehhh...In the right team, Id agree. Maybe that makes him too focused on one niche tho? -Maaster
  • Guess I agree I just think his defense rating should be higher than his offense rating, and he recently got a resurgence due to MasA after growing more and more irrelevant the past few months. I guess maybe just decrease his offense rating by 0.5 instead? Not sure here either.

Id say 8.5 on def is fine. Just put it in notes/con then that he needs good brands and a team tailored to him else he drops a lot.

• Cu Chulainn: Offense/Defense -> 6 Sweeper with uninteresting statline that is too unfocused, by being split between Physical and Magic, both stat and skill wise
  • He still sweeps hard, so I think 7 is justified. -Maaster
  • Don't think he sweeps nearly as hard as his competition in the 7s and I never see him anywhere, but I don't feel too strongly about this so I'm fine with leaving him at 7 if other people think so.

• Lilith: Defense -> 7 chain effects are good
  • Sure

• Raphael: Offense/Defense -> 8 Still more common than the other non Gabriel and Uriel angels for the third slot, hits force which is a more common weakness and is good at cleaning up after the other angels
  • Disagree. No Pierce, heals and random targetting make him worse. Also his buff doesnt do shit for Angel Teams. If you cant kill t1, you are dead 99% of the time. Imo there is not really a reason to run him. -Maaster
  • Like I said it's mostly a usage based argument, though I also don't feel strongly about this one since I don't use him and the only reason he's good against me is because I use a fringe team.

• Garuda A: Offense/Defense -> 7 Fast Magic sweeper with a good statline and some good awakening skills that can also be built around his gimmick. Also Purple is definitely a good arch in PvP so at least change that
  • I tried him out when I got him but couldnt get it to really work. I guess given good enough brands and all panels it could work out better tho. So I wouldnt oppose this change. -Maaster